I was just reading a thread about an HK and Sig and it got me thinking. If Sigs and HK's are such great, incredible, accurate, reliable guns, why aren't they used more in competitions? I've been to a few USPSA matches and don't recall seeing any. I've looked at the match results from quite a few USPSA and IDPA matches and you don't see them listed very often. I'm not suggesting they aren't quality guns, they are just strangely absent from competitions considering how much they are praised by people.
i've seen one HK used in a match and it didnt do that great same with the Xd
It's gun design. It's hard for a "regular" firing mechanism to compete with Glock's striker design (and trigger), or a 1911's single action. That doesn't mean Sigs and HKs aren't "great, incredible, accurate, reliable guns"
You might as well ask why M151A2's (old jeeps which are a rugged, reliable design) or Toyota Corollas (the epitome of reliable) don't show up in the NASCAR circuit.
You might as well ask why M151A2's (old jeeps which are a rugged, reliable design) or Toyota Corollas (the epitome of reliable) don't show up in the NASCAR circuit.
That's a little bit of a stretch. Both pistols are perfectly adequate for both competitions, especially IDPA. The vehicles are in no way suited for circle track racing.
It's hyperbole, to illustrate the point. Want a better analogy? Why do you see more automatic transmissions in drag racing (as opposed to manuals)? A manual is perfectly adequate, after all.
Both have a comparatively high bore axis. The Sig 210 is a competition gun.
I have seen a P7M13 used in 3 gun(15 odd years ago), but, obviously, parts replacement is a huge issue now.Off topic, but I thought they do use manual transmissions in drag racing.
The high bore axis always makes me chuckle - its somehow never affected my ability to more accurately shoot my old HK and all my Sigs better than my Glocks.
All the low bore axis does is put the barrel more in-line with the natural point of aim (and supposedly reduce recoil due to the fact that its happening lower on the pivot point of the webbing of your strong-hand, but this is also affected by a number of other design differences).
The lack of controls and cost is what gives the Glocks the advantage - you can start a comp with no manual safety engaged (other than the two mechanical internal safeties the Glock has) and every trigger pull is the same.
Due to most of the rules requiring you to have the weapon safety-on before holstering it (if loaded), you end up with the ability to skip several steps with a Glock over even an S/A (or HK cocked/locked) with a manual safety (not that it necessarily makes you faster, but its easier).
The difference in D/A first trigger-pull and each follow-up S/A trigger pull on the Sigs (and HKs if you run them that way) means that you have an effect on both your first shot and the second (possibly the third if you have not adjusted for the single-action trigger by then).
That's a pretty big difference - I know it puts me at a disadvantage when doing drills with friends who use Glocks, but I don't practice or run drills for competition-speed, I do it to train on the same platform that I carry to become proficient at drawing and shooting when carrying or defending myself - and that first D/A trigger pull is useful in ensuring that I really want to pull the trigger that first time when it comes down to it.
Glocks are also a lot cheaper than Sigs and HKs (especially the competition-specific models).
All the low bore axis does is put the barrel more in-line with the natural point of aim (and supposedly reduce recoil due to the fact that its happening lower on the pivot point of the webbing of your strong-hand, but this is also affected by a number of other design differences).
The lack of controls and cost is what gives the Glocks the advantage - you can start a comp with no manual safety engaged (other than the two mechanical internal safeties the Glock has) and every trigger pull is the same.
Due to most of the rules requiring you to have the weapon safety-on before holstering it (if loaded), you end up with the ability to skip several steps with a Glock over even an S/A (or HK cocked/locked) with a manual safety (not that it necessarily makes you faster, but its easier).
The difference in D/A first trigger-pull and each follow-up S/A trigger pull on the Sigs (and HKs if you run them that way) means that you have an effect on both your first shot and the second (possibly the third if you have not adjusted for the single-action trigger by then).
That's a pretty big difference - I know it puts me at a disadvantage when doing drills with friends who use Glocks, but I don't practice or run drills for competition-speed, I do it to train on the same platform that I carry to become proficient at drawing and shooting when carrying or defending myself - and that first D/A trigger pull is useful in ensuring that I really want to pull the trigger that first time when it comes down to it.
Glocks are also a lot cheaper than Sigs and HKs (especially the competition-specific models).
When I first got my Glock, I'd had my Sig 228 for a couple years, and had put a few thousand rounds through it. Within the first few hundred rounds down the Glock, I could shoot it faster than the Sig keeping the same accuracy level. Outright slow fire? The Sig will shoot circles around the Glock.
In a fire fight, I wouldn't have time to slow fire and put all the rounds in a tiny little hole, I will have to put as many rounds as possible on target as quickly as possible (till the threat is eliminated).
However, to my surprise due to all the hype, in my experience the Sig is a more ultimately reliable gun. It will cycle ammo loaded light enough the brass barely clears my hand, it cycled wadcutter style ammo (I loaded 25 or so bullets backwards on purpose). In fact, the only jam I have EVER had with the Sig is a primer loaded sideways. The Glock chokes on light loads, and laughed at the wadcutters.
In a fire fight, I wouldn't have time to slow fire and put all the rounds in a tiny little hole, I will have to put as many rounds as possible on target as quickly as possible (till the threat is eliminated).
However, to my surprise due to all the hype, in my experience the Sig is a more ultimately reliable gun. It will cycle ammo loaded light enough the brass barely clears my hand, it cycled wadcutter style ammo (I loaded 25 or so bullets backwards on purpose). In fact, the only jam I have EVER had with the Sig is a primer loaded sideways. The Glock chokes on light loads, and laughed at the wadcutters.
