Sig and HK question

[Saur]

I've owned several Sigs and H&Ks over the years... now I don't own any. Personally, I can control my shots in quicker succession better with Glocks, 1911s or even more recently, a Steyr.

Cost isn't a significant reason you see glocks in competition IMO, otherwise you wouldn't see so many 1911s, 2011, CZ platforms etc because those aren't that cheap either. It's honestly just a better platform to shoot faster shots on target for those particular people. The bore axis makes a significant difference for me, again, when practicing shots on target in quick succession. This is what self defense is all about IMO and it just happens to score points in competition aswell.

FWIW, my Styer M40 is by far the most controllable .40 I've ever owned, including a full size .40 1911. I've owned a Sig P226 and P229 in .40 and neither came close.

I never heard of a Steyr M40 before, so I googled it. That's one crazy lookin' pistola

 

[ez bake]

I never heard of a Steyr M40 before, so I googled it. That's one crazy lookin' pistola

Its "the other Austrian pistol" and its actually probably one of the best deals in guns since the FNP9 and CZ 75 have started climbing in price.

They make caliber conversion kits for them too - from the factory (which is nice).

Super-lowe bore axis (and a comfortable grip to boot - unlike holding a bar of soap). Not a terrible trigger in it either (strange sights, but not unusable by any means once you get used to them).

 

[El Pablo]

Price, glocks, m&p's, xd's, etc all cost quite a bit less than a sig or hk. Some people have run hk's and sigs quite successfully in comps, but on average most people don't want to spend the $$$ in production or learn the two trigger pulls a dao/sa would require. I have shot a sig in production when I first started. The price of the mods, etc, I could just buy a pimp 2011 and shoot in limited or a glock, and xd.... (Which i bought all three)

 

[Glocktogo]

Both have a comparatively high bore axis. The Sig 210 is a competition gun. I have seen a P7M13 used in 3 gun(15 odd years ago), but, obviously, parts replacement is a huge issue now.

This.

The high bore axis always makes me chuckle - its somehow never affected my ability to more accurately shoot my old HK and all my Sigs better than my Glocks.

All the low bore axis does is put the barrel more in-line with the natural point of aim (and supposedly reduce recoil due to the fact that its happening lower on the pivot point of the webbing of your strong-hand, but this is also affected by a number of other design differences).

The lack of controls and cost is what gives the Glocks the advantage - you can start a comp with no manual safety engaged (other than the two mechanical internal safeties the Glock has) and every trigger pull is the same.

Due to most of the rules requiring you to have the weapon safety-on before holstering it (if loaded), you end up with the ability to skip several steps with a Glock over even an S/A (or HK cocked/locked) with a manual safety (not that it necessarily makes you faster, but its easier).

The difference in D/A first trigger-pull and each follow-up S/A trigger pull on the Sigs (and HKs if you run them that way) means that you have an effect on both your first shot and the second (possibly the third if you have not adjusted for the single-action trigger by then).

That's a pretty big difference - I know it puts me at a disadvantage when doing drills with friends who use Glocks, but I don't practice or run drills for competition-speed, I do it to train on the same platform that I carry to become proficient at drawing and shooting when carrying or defending myself - and that first D/A trigger pull is useful in ensuring that I really want to pull the trigger that first time when it comes down to it.

Glocks are also a lot cheaper than Sigs and HKs (especially the competition-specific models).

High bore axis has nothing to do with accurate shooting, but it has a lot to do with the fast follow up shots which are critical in USPSA and IDPA. Simply put, the recoil impulse on a gun with a high bore centerline has more leverage against the hand to impart muzzle lift. The higher it lifts, the more a speed shooter will tend to force it back down. That causes successive shots to be off the intended point of aim more often. The other option is to allow the muzzle more time to return to point of aim naturally. That's an undesirable solution in games where winning and loosing is measured in hundredth's of a second.

Cost has almost nothing to do with it. By the time I put a Bar-Sto barrel, Dawson sights and trigger tuning on a Glock to make it as accurate as a Sig or HK, I have as much or more money in one as I would a Sig or HK. One of the most ubiquitous USPSA guns is an STI 2011. Those are significantly more expensive than Sigs or HK's.

One fo the reasons you don't see HK's is because they don't sponsor anyone. Sig sponsors Max Michel and used to sponsor Ernie Langdon. Both of them can run a Sig very well. Ernie also won with a DA/SA Beretta for a couple of years. But then again, they could run any gun well. The average shooter on the other hand is going to have more difficulty keeping up with a DA/SA gun with a high bore centerline.

I started shooting competitions over a decade ago with a Ruger P-97. It was ridiculously accurate, but felt like riding a see-saw compared to the Glocks, 1911's and M&P I've run since then. The only other gun I've run in competition that had that much pitch was a S&W 625 revolver. At least with it I was only competing against other 625's, so it wasn't an issue. The worst pitching gun I've ever shot was the HK USP 45.

 

[RustyZX9]

This! Competition is about numbers and scores, self defense is about who is left standing.

Isn't the goal to get rounds on target as quickly as possible in either case? I'm no expert at anything and don't want to be seen as presenting myself as such.

I don't understand why one platform has to be the end all and another is regarded as junk when it clearly is not. We are fortunate to have choices and competitve shooters will go with what works regardless of cost most all of the time. I think that striker fired weapons are the way to go but can't say that the others aren't quality weapons as well. I started with HK and then when to SIG and then to M&P, which just so happend to work best for me.

 

[HKCHEF]

One fo the reasons you don't see HK's is because they don't sponsor anyone.

Team HK (sponsored)

I believe they sponsor a European team as well.

 

[JD8]

Team HK (sponsored)

I believe they sponsor a European team as well.

The latest update they have on that link for the shooting team was from 2002/2001. Kinda proves his point.

 

[HKCHEF]

The latest update they have on that link for the shooting team was from 2002/2001. Kinda proves his point.

This one looks newer.

[Broken External Image]

 

[Glocktogo]

Team HK (sponsored)

I believe they sponsor a European team as well.

These guys were on the Columbia, MO PD Swat team when they shot for HK. We got them so drunk in Kansas the night before a state match that they couldn't shoot the next day! Every time we saw them after that they'd refuse to go party with us! Good times!

 

[z06man]

Team HK (sponsored)

I believe they sponsor a European team as well.

Where's the HK's! WTH?