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Discussion in 'NFA & Class III Discussion' started by MrShooter, Oct 23, 2011.
.....man that cut and crown of that barrel is taking a while.....
I believe that since your lower already has manufacturer makings you would fill this out in the boxes "4a", "4g", and "4h". No name or address engraving would be needed. That is, unless you want someone to track down where you and your guns are. If you were making a gun from scratch and no makings were on the gun then you would have to mark it. Correct me if wrong.
No sir, you are wrong. The manufacturing info that is currently on the lower is the info for the company that made the title 1 lower receiver, not the SBR. When you file a Form 1 (Application to Make and Register a Firearm) YOU are applying to make a title 2 weapon and YOU are the maker of the SBR and YOUR info has to be engraved. Here is the law on the subject:
Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
§ 479.102 How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and
(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:
(i) The model, if such designation has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and
(v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.
(b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases).
(c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.
(d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or impracticable.
(e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section.
(f)(1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section.
(2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.
No sir, that is a common misinterpretation. You do NOT have to mark an already existing weapon. That only applies to making a new receiver from scratch or making a can etc. I have a close friend who has been dealing with NFA weapons for years and informed me on this when i was doing my uzi. I even called the ATF and they said since my receiver was an existing gun with the manufacturers info already on it i did not need to engrave my info. I filled out the info and serial on the gun and that was it. Got the approved papers and no ugly scribbles on my gun. Read this from the online ATF publications of the national firearms act handbook chapter 6:
CHAPTER 6. MAKING NFA FIREARMS BY NONLICENSEE
Section 6.1 Requirements for making NFA firearms. Persons not otherwise prohibited from
possessing firearms may submit an application to make an NFA firearm, other than a machinegun.93
The application process requires submission of ATF Form 1, Application to Make and Register a
Firearm, in duplicate, along with FBI FD-258, Fingerprint Card, in duplicate, and payment of the $200
making tax. Appendix C contains a copy of Form 1.
Section 6.2 Preparation of Form 1. Every person (other than a licensed manufacturer who has also
paid the required SOT to manufacture NFA weapons) must complete the Form 1.94 Two identical
copies of the application must be prepared. All entries must be made in ink. All required signatures
must be original and entered in ink. Photocopies or other facsimile or carbon copy signatures are not
acceptable. Under no circumstances will a form filled in by use of a lead pencil be accepted. All
changes made on the form must be initialed and dated by the applicant.
6.2.1 Description of firearm. If an existing firearm or firearm receiver is being used, the name and
location of the original manufacturer of the weapon should be entered in Block 4(a). If the applicant is
making a completely new firearm, the applicant’s name and location should be entered in Block 4(a).
The type of firearm being made, i.e., short barrel rifle, short barrel shotgun, any other weapon, silencer
or destructive device, is to be entered in Block 4(b). The caliber or gauge of the firearm is to be entered
in Block 4(c). If a model designation has been assigned to the firearm, that designation is to be placed in
Block 4(d). If the weapon has no model designation, enter “none” in Block 4(d). The length of the
barrel is to be entered, in inches, in Block 4(e) and the overall length of the firearm is to be entered, in
inches, in Block 4(f).
All NFA firearms must be identified by a serial number and other specified markings95. If an existing
firearm is being used in the making of the NFA weapon, and that firearm is serialized, the existing serial
number should be used (unless it duplicates a serial number already used by the maker on Form 1) and
entered in Block 4(g). If the weapon is of new manufacture, the applicant must assign a unique serial
number and enter it in Block 4(g). For example, a unique serial number could be composed of at least 4
digits preceded by the initials of the maker. NOTE: alpha characters, e.g., a name, will not be accepted
as a serial number. If a name is to be used, there must be at least one numeric character in addition to
the alpha characters.
The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model,
No sir, you and your friend are wrong. This subject has been debated ad nauseum on the internet for years (I have been involved with NFA since 1991). There is a small minority that think like you and your friend and there will be no convincing you. You can call NFA Branch all you want and get 50 different answers (they are examiners, not legal specialists).The NFA Handbook you quoted covers filling out the form 1 and does not mention the engraving at all and actually has a lot of errors. I quoted you the actual LAW. You show me something repealing that and I will believe you, but until then we will just have to agree to disagree. Below is a letter from the NFA Chief stating that the makers info must be on it. Have a nice day.
[Broken External Image]
And here is a rejection letter from NFA branch because the person did not engrave their entire trust name on the firearm:
The law you quote can be interpreted in different ways and most likely is directed at licensed manufacturers. If the NFA handbook isn't accurate then i don't know what is. Its either someones interpretation of the confusing law or the clear explanation given by the ATF themselves in their handbook. I know what i'll beleive. I encourage everyone to study the NFA handbook. And remember, if you are a non-licensee then chapter 6 applies to you.
The law seems pretty clear to me and specifically states manufacturers (licensed) and makers (non-licensee) must put their info on it. Whether you agree or not, it is THE LAW. The handbook is just a handbook. The letter I posted from the NFA Branch Chief says that they were remiss in not mentioning that info in a previous letter and quoted the EXACT SAME LAW that I did. I do not know what more it would take to convince you.
Look, the worst that could possibly happen is that in the unlikely event that you ever cross paths with the ATF and they make an issue of it is that they make you engrave it (or they do it with an electropencil like they did to one guys MG) and you go on your merry way. No one is going to jail or get fined over this, so it is a moot point anyway.
Again, I do not believe I will convince you that I am right and you will not convince me you are, so let us just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Have a nice day.
I don't know what to say, CAR has dun said it all. The law is very clear on this and the handbook excerpt you posted doesn't even really mention engraving. I'd rather engrave my form 1 items and not go to prison than not engrave them and hope some guy from the internet was right.
I remember reading that guys first letter where the ATF told him he did not have to mark his gun. The one you poseted must have been a follow up. If i were to mark the barrel of an uzi or AR, then what happens when the barrel is changed out? What is the gun is sold and the new owner changes barrels?
Here is the forum thread where the letter came from. Note the guy never posted the "denial reason" letter so i don't know where that one came from.