Here Is A Couple Of Questions For Uvalde Victim Relatives To Ask ...

[Glocktogo]

My point is, you only stop the stupid active shooters. The ones that plan, not much will stop them. I'm more afraid of the people smart enough to not use guns.

At my company, hopefully the security watching doors, etc would notice someone the few seconds someone trying to get in where they shouldn't. It does get tested. Also, we have some very easy, common sense security on all the solid wood doors to offices.

Was this shooter stupid? He killed 21 people and held off 80+ LE officers and agents for over an hour. Was he more or less stupid than the guy running “incident command”? More or less stupid than the people who run the school system?

It appears your real “plan” is hoping people who are usually paid slightly above minimum wage are paying attention. Let’s assume they do, how long till armed response? As we’ve seen here, even when you think the answer would obviously be minutes (let’s say 5 minutes or less), it can actually be hour(s). What are you gonna do now?

And solid core interior doors are great, until the shooter gains access and uses them against responders, the way this stupid perp did. So unless active shooters suddenly turn to fires or chemical weapons, I’d worry more about what the actual current threat is.

But what do I know, right?

 

[CC379]

When i was in school none of the doors had any kind of locks on them people could come and go day or night and most of us grade school boys brought our 22 rifles to class with us and stood them in the corner til school was out and carried them home hunting on the way, when entered high school nearly every pickup or car had atleast 2 guns in them a rifle and shotgun.

similar here, nearly every truck had a rifle or shotgun in the back window gun rack, the principal often had students bring their guns in so he could look them over

 

[El Pablo]

Was this shooter stupid? He killed 21 people and held off 80+ LE officers and agents for over an hour. Was he more or less stupid than the guy running “incident command”? More or less stupid than the people who run the school system?

It appears your real “plan” is hoping people who are usually paid slightly above minimum wage are paying attention. Let’s assume they do, how long till armed response? As we’ve seen here, even when you think the answer would obviously be minutes (let’s say 5 minutes or less), it can actually be hour(s). What are you gonna do now?

And solid core interior doors are great, until the shooter gains access and uses them against responders, the way this stupid perp did. So unless active shooters suddenly turn to fires or chemical weapons, I’d worry more about what the actual current threat is.

But what do I know, right?

Yes, he was stupid. Not a topic for the public internet.

 

[Glocktogo]

Yes, he was stupid. Not a topic for the public internet.

Regardless, your point is moot and incorrect based on the reality we have, rather than the one you envision. You’re entitled to your opinion, but not your own set of facts.

 

[yukonjack]

The door was not the problem The problem is that not one of the following would give permission to enter the classroom or shoot the gunkid
1) Pete A (Chief of Campus Police)
2) Administration staff at Robb Elementary
3) Superintendent of the School District
4) Any School Board Member

All of the Regulas Police - Texas Rangers - Border Patrol & Others were there for support!!!!!! (Nothing Else)

Two Senior Federal Agents decided to break the law and end it (They put their Jobs & Career on the line)

There is/was no law that prevented any police officer on that scene from breaching that door.

 

[yukonjack]

That is completely untrue. Any government run facilities worth a plug nickel, have protocols and supplies designated for emergency response personnel to have access control in emergencies. Shift leaders and command centers have grand master keys and management electronic access control levels, so they don’t have to rely on the janitor to get them in during an emergency. Key accountability audits are part and parcel of the system, with locks re-cored in the event accountability loss.

There lies the psychological difference. As quick as police are to damage a citizen refusing to comply with their orders, they catch major flak if they damage property during the course of their duties. This applies mainly to agency property and business or government property, not things like cars belonging to suspects.

On the other hand, firefighters are trained to break property. Windows, doors, roofs, walls, whatever it takes to rescue people and extinguish fires.

SWAT teams breaking doors typically have prior approval to break a door, in the form of a warrant or incident commander approval. In some agencies, line officers have to have approval to even pit a fleeing suspect.

FWIW, I doubt many of the LE in charge of this clusterfark even considered taking out a wall, door or ceiling. Consider the pathetic claim that the situation had transitioned to an armed and barricaded and that there were no children in continued harm’s way at that point (which was a stupid assumption on the part of UCISD Chief Sitting Dumbass). What was his overriding concern at that point? Apprehending the suspect? Or keeping control of the scene while not putting any of his officers in any danger?

He worked for the school administration and just got elected to town council. Since he’s in hiding and refusing to answer the public’s valid questions, I think we can safely assume his focus was on saving the town and school’s money, which also helped him keep himself and his officers away from danger.

This is correct, but in the past couple of years, more and more active shooters have engaged responding officers. The cops aren’t the only ones whose tactics can change.

The problem is that for some unexplainable reason, school systems in America have been granted a level of autonomy they neither need nor deserve. They’ve become little fiefdoms where problems are concealed and public concerns are dismissed.

That has to change. School administrations and boards should have exactly 0% control over law enforcement operations. This had morphed from a security issue to a law enforcement issue the second the perp fired his first shot (which was before he stepped on school property).

School administrations and boards love to point out that they’re the experts on education and ordinary citizens should defer to their expertise. Fine. When an active shooter steps on their turf, THEY are the ordinary citizens who have no expertise on active shooter response.

I can extrapolate this dynamic into other criminal activity. When a student or teacher sexually harasses someone within the school, that’s a school problem. When they cross the line to sexual molestation or rape, that’s an LE problem and the school administration should be excluded from the investigation, unless they’re being interviewed as a witness.

That’s the way it works everywhere else that crimes happen, why are schools different? They’re not special and deserve no deference. When it comes to active shooter operations, the incident command should be transferred every time someone with more experience, qualifications and resources shows up. School, city/county, state. In certain rare instances, incident command can be cooperatively shared, but the senior person/agency should agree with the final decisions.

The fact that the school “police chief” who’s expertise was 911 dispatcher and then less than 2 years in the chief’s position, felt he had the authority and expertise to remain in command, when dozens of local, state and federal law enforcement officers with far more expertise and equipment were on scene, is an indictment of the active shooter response protocols in place in Uvalde, TX.

UCISD Chief Sitting Dumbass should’ve been in charge of nothing more than providing access keys, diagrams/layout of the building and other pertinent information to the cavalry when they arrived.

Piedmont Public Schools here is central Oklahoma has gone a step further.
They had a School Resource Officer from Piedmont Police Dept. Then a few years back the school district terminated the contract. Then for 2 years after that they had a contract with the Canadian County Sheriffs office to provide two deputies as SRO’s. There was some kind of friction between the Superintendent of Schools and the SRO assigned to the high school. That contract was also terminated.

Now they have hired two private unarmed security guards to keep the schools safe. There are times when school is in session that the City of Piedmont only has one officer on duty on day shift. The whole reason for going to private security was so that the Superintendent could have complete control over the narrative. When the SRO’s were called to investigate a crime that happened on school district property Involving students the Superintendent couldn’t prevent them from taking the appropriate law enforcement actions that may have been warranted.

He‘s created a situation that is going to spiral out of control all because of his ego. We’ve gone backwards out here instead of forward.

 

[SoonerP226]

Look at that door!

The HINGES are on the outside
Same as when I was school. Same doors that I would slip the pins out of the hinges, just before lunch and watch the door fly, when the bell rang.

There's a tool for that...
https://covertinstruments.com/products/improved-hammerless-hinge-pin-removal-tool
ETA: Corrected URL.

 

[turkeyrun]

Why couldn't that be used for a stuck case in a reload die?

 

[jakeman]

Piedmont Public Schools here is central Oklahoma has gone a step further.
They had a School Resource Officer from Piedmont Police Dept. Then a few years back the school district terminated the contract. Then for 2 years after that they had a contract with the Canadian County Sheriffs office to provide two deputies as SRO’s. There was some kind of friction between the Superintendent of Schools and the SRO assigned to the high school. That contract was also terminated.

Now they have hired two private unarmed security guards to keep the schools safe. There are times when school is in session that the City of Piedmont only has one officer on duty on day shift. The whole reason for going to private security was so that the Superintendent could have complete control over the narrative. When the SRO’s were called to investigate a crime that happened on school district property Involving students the Superintendent couldn’t prevent them from taking the appropriate law enforcement actions that may have been warranted.

He‘s created a situation that is going to spiral out of control all because of his ego. We’ve gone backwards out here instead of forward.

Fire him. If the board won’t do it, fire them and elect someone that will fire his ass.

It takes time, but today isn’t too early or late to get started.

 

[turkeyrun]

Piedmont Public Schools here is central Oklahoma has gone a step further.
They had a School Resource Officer from Piedmont Police Dept. Then a few years back the school district terminated the contract. Then for 2 years after that they had a contract with the Canadian County Sheriffs office to provide two deputies as SRO’s. There was some kind of friction between the Superintendent of Schools and the SRO assigned to the high school. That contract was also terminated.

Now they have hired two private unarmed security guards to keep the schools safe. There are times when school is in session that the City of Piedmont only has one officer on duty on day shift. The whole reason for going to private security was so that the Superintendent could have complete control over the narrative. When the SRO’s were called to investigate a crime that happened on school district property Involving students the Superintendent couldn’t prevent them from taking the appropriate law enforcement actions that may have been warranted.

He‘s created a situation that is going to spiral out of control all because of his ego. We’ve gone backwards out here instead of forward.

What is UNARMED SECURITY going to do with an ACTIVE SHOOTER?