Septuagenarian shot dead in his garage, intruders blame poor lighting on the homicide

[Dave70968]

I wonder what happened to that guy in Minnesota in 07/08 or so. An informant gave them a random address and the police burst in, so the homeowner shot two of them.
Thankfully nobody was killed, but I wonder if the homeowner is in jail now.

ETA: found it:"Vang Khang was taken into custody but later released"

A tragedy to be sure. Still, one wonders whether it might have been prevented by using a quiet stakeout rather than a dynamic entry.

That's the discussion we ought to be having here: what can we do to reduce risk while still policing effectively? A lot more boring surveillance and a lot less flash-and-bang seems to be a good start.

 

[retrieverman]

A tragedy to be sure. Still, one wonders whether it might have been prevented by using a quiet stakeout rather than a dynamic entry.

That's the discussion we ought to be having here: what can we do to reduce risk while still policing effectively? A lot more boring surveillance and a lot less flash-and-bang seems to be a good start.

The problem, as I see it, is that LE tactics appear to be going the opposite direction with more emphasis being put on "surprise attacks" and less on surveillance.

I am unapolgetically a LEO basher, and the biggest reason for my attitude is listening to stories and seeing the attitudes of friends and family who are cops. The days of "Officer Friendly" are all but gone (I do still know a few who try to maintain that persona), and the attitude of most cops that I know is guilty until proven innocent.

 

[LightningCrash]

First, read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic

now i would read:
http://www.pnj.com/article/20130728/NEWS11/307280027/Deputies-shoot-at-man-in-his-yard

 

[Belthos]

First, read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic

now i would read:
http://www.pnj.com/article/20130728/NEWS11/307280027/Deputies-shoot-at-man-in-his-yard

So you are saying that heuristics caused him to think a cigarette was in the car and that if he wasn't a smoker he would not have been shot.

The lesson is that smoking is bad for your health?

 

[AKguy1985]

Not good and sad deal. That was somebodys grandpa.

 

[Shadowrider]

We can learn some tactical lessons from this. Have a flashlight of your own. Identify your target. It is safest not to confront a BG if you don't have to... take a defensive position and let him come to you. If you must, do it from a position of strength. Don't just stand there and raise a gun to an armed BG... move and shoot, or use some cover. And in case the BG's you pop happen to be cops, have a plan to effin disappear.

My plan is a bit different from yours. I'm certain that if the police show up at my house it's going to be a wrong house scenario. So what I would do is inform them that I'm calling 911 to confirm, once confirmed I'll disarm, open up and let them in. I'll tell them that if they come through before that, they will have a lot paperwork to do and the coroner will likely be involved. This way if they aren't police the police have been called and if they are they have communication coming from two directions. But yea, coming through the door makes it "go time" and a no-knock warrant is my worst nightmare.

 

[LightningCrash]

So you are saying that heuristics caused him to think a cigarette was in the car and that if he wasn't a smoker he would not have been shot.

The lesson is that smoking is bad for your health?

Nope, but I'll give you a mulligan on the first one

 

[turkeyrun]

The problem with 'common sense' is it isn't as common as it should be.

Comparing military to LE is apples and oranges.

I see the problem as no 'real' police work. No surveillance, poor planning, poor tactics, BE ABSOLUTELY SURE OF YOUR LOCATION. Too many 'smash and crash' attitudes coupled with poor / inadequate information. Same as in 'Warrior Cop' thread. Cops expend over 250 rounds in a house based solely on a 'tip' from an ex-gf. NOT ACCEPTABLE!

 

[vvvvvvv]

But yea, coming through the door makes it "go time" and a no-knock warrant is my worst nightmare.

Self-defense is probably protected under those circumstances. Just keep in mind the ratio will be your one bullet to their 250 if fire is returned.

Mary Lou Coonfield

 

[henschman]

Self-defense is probably protected under those circumstances. Just keep in mind the ratio will be your one bullet to their 250 if fire is returned.

Mary Lou Coonfield

Of course she had to go to jury trial to get that acquittal. And if the warrant is valid, even if nothing illegal is found, you do not have the benefit of MMD. In general, if you shoot a cop, no matter the circumstances, expect to be tried.