They're out there. Be Prepared.

[Shadowrider]

With that being on video, there is not a DA out there who could justify pressing charges against some for defending themselves against that "person"

Not to be a smart a$$, but I really would like to know if Kenneth Gumm shares your opinion. And I can guarantee that there are many DA's around the country that would have no compunction whatever at charging you if they determined that it was possible for you to get away.

 

[Michael Brown]

Not to be a smart a$$, but I really would like to know if Kenneth Gumm shares your opinion. And I can guarantee that there are many DA's around the country that would have no compunction whatever at charging you if they determined that it was possible for you to get away.

That's a bit apples to oranges........

Gumm's assailant wasn't armed. Gumm got into a verbal confrontation with the assailant first. Gumm parked after the initial confrontation giving some the impression that he was looking for the fight.

Most importantly, Gumm ran his mouth to the media.

Lots of important distinctions.

Michael Brown

 

[Shadowrider]

That's a bit apples to oranges........

Gumm's assailant wasn't armed. Gumm got into a verbal confrontation with the assailant first. Gumm parked after the initial confrontation giving some the impression that he was looking for the fight.

Most importantly, Gumm ran his mouth to the media.

Lots of important distinctions.

Michael Brown

Well I wasn't trying to draw a parallel to the two incidents. I should have stated that I would like for Gumm to watch the video and then give his opinion which is really where my thought process was. I'm pretty sure where he would come down in regards the DA's in general. And the age/physical difference between Gumm and his antagonizer goes along way to drawing a conclusion that he might as well been armed. Same difference? But you are right about the rest, he did stop and he did run his mouth. Again it goes to my point about DA's in general. Luckily most in Oklahoma are not cut from the same cloth as those in a lot of other states.

Your earlier point about the "prey mindset" is right on but, I prefer to call it the "sheep mindset". It seems as though our society has had it so deeply ingrained in us that we should always flee and let the police (sheepdog) handle it when these problems crop up. And on the other hand maybe we've just had it so good, for so long, that most people just don't have the ability or the will to "handle things" themselves anymore. Either way it sucks...

 

[Michael Brown]

And the age/physical difference between Gumm and his antagonizer goes along way to drawing a conclusion that he might as well been armed. Same difference?

Unfortunately not.

Disparity of force based on size or age has not historically carried the same weight with courts as has an armed adversary.

I'm not arguing that it's right, but rather that an armed citizen needs to understand this.

The only disparities of force that carries similar weight to weapons are:

1) Multiple Opponents

2) Gender

With age, physical size, combat ability, etc as the disparity the courts will demand a very high standard from you.

That has been my experience but YMMV.

Michael Brown

 

[GhostlyKarliion]

at .54 seconds in the video she would have had a perfect defense to riddle him with bullets, and should have.

+2 to the 'revoke his birth certificate' line

 

[Stephen Cue]

That's a bit apples to oranges........

Gumm's assailant wasn't armed. Gumm got into a verbal confrontation with the assailant first. Gumm parked after the initial confrontation giving some the impression that he was looking for the fight.

Most importantly, Gumm ran his mouth to the media.

Lots of important distinctions.

Michael Brown

Here's a mystery to me Mike, If Gumm was not looking for a fight, why did he get out of the car (with gun in hand I understand) and in essence out of the protection of the 'castle doctrine' ?

 

[_CY_]

from Tulsa world comments: http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080716_14_A9_spancl481129
any truth to allegations below?
------------------------
Time to set the record straight. There have probably been 1000 blogs on this subject, and very few of them are reasonable or considered. This case was never about Tim Harris or old men taking beatings or GUN RIGHTS. This case has always been specifically about this case. Every criminal case is a world of its own. One takes specific facts and applies them to the law. For the world know this:
1. The make my day law is a good law, and it is fine exactly like it is.
2. The make my day law has never been the real issue in this case. It does not apply to these facts. PERIOD
3. Kenneth Gumm never ran out of money for his defense. His defense was paid for, and would have countinued to be paid for by the National Rifle Association NRA.
4. Kenneth Gumm's health was never an issue in reality in this case. To this day, you can see Kenneth Gumm walking up a storm on Riverside. He loves to tell his story and get attention.
5. Kenneth Gumm, while 68 years old, is not a frail and sickly man.
6. All of the negative information that has appeared in this paper and on the blogs about Dale Turney, is all misinformation, put out by Gumm, his attorneys (paid well by the NRA), and bloggers that want to make this case all about gun rights.
7. There was never any real proof that Dale Turney was a methamphetamine user. The real evidence is to the contrary. Dale Turney was on an allergy medication inhalant, which would have exhibited the same chemical test results as the metabolite of methamphetamine.
8. Kenneth Gumm shot an unarmed man in broad daylight in front of @ least 5 eyewitnesses within an 80 foot radius.
9. There is record evidence to corroborate that Gumm was not in danger of his life when he "angrily" shot and killed Dale Turney.
10. For the most part, all of the information you folks have read has been part of a misinformation campaign, to scare you regarding your rights to bear arms, and to make a conviction in this case less likely.
11. At least half of all Homicide cases are defended by self-defense.
12. Gumm has told his story @ least seven times now, and the details he has given have been different seven times, and are different from all of the bystander witnesses.
13. Kenneth Gumm was repesented very well by his NRA attorneys. They saved him from possibly going to prison. A jury could not have suspended his sentence. Once they heard the real case, a conviction was likely.
14. Notice that all of the Tulsa World articles include only the Defense version of events. Other sources were ignored, and or deleted, because there is an obvious agenda in play.
15. The so-called government expense to prosecute Gumm was completely negligible. Police reports and citizen witnesses were utilized. Probably less the $500.00 total.
16. Pay attention to Court homicide cases. This type of killing occurs in North Tulsa all the time. People get mad and kill. The only thing that made this case different from the scores of homicides investigated, was location of shooting, and the press coverage.

The truth in this case is easy to find. Do any of you wonder why all of the information in this case has come only from Gumm? Them family has chosen to be classy and respectable regarding their comments. They sat still, as they were asked, for months, while Gumm had free reign with the press. They never even asked for prison time.

Justice was done in this case.

 

[Michael Brown]

from Tulsa world comments: http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080716_14_A9_spancl481129
any truth to allegations below?
------------------------
Time to set the record straight. There have probably been 1000 blogs on this subject, and very few of them are reasonable or considered. This case was never about Tim Harris or old men taking beatings or GUN RIGHTS. This case has always been specifically about this case. Every criminal case is a world of its own. One takes specific facts and applies them to the law. For the world know this:
1. The make my day law is a good law, and it is fine exactly like it is.
2. The make my day law has never been the real issue in this case. It does not apply to these facts. PERIOD
3. Kenneth Gumm never ran out of money for his defense. His defense was paid for, and would have countinued to be paid for by the National Rifle Association NRA.
4. Kenneth Gumm's health was never an issue in reality in this case. To this day, you can see Kenneth Gumm walking up a storm on Riverside. He loves to tell his story and get attention.
5. Kenneth Gumm, while 68 years old, is not a frail and sickly man.
6. All of the negative information that has appeared in this paper and on the blogs about Dale Turney, is all misinformation, put out by Gumm, his attorneys (paid well by the NRA), and bloggers that want to make this case all about gun rights.
7. There was never any real proof that Dale Turney was a methamphetamine user. The real evidence is to the contrary. Dale Turney was on an allergy medication inhalant, which would have exhibited the same chemical test results as the metabolite of methamphetamine.
8. Kenneth Gumm shot an unarmed man in broad daylight in front of @ least 5 eyewitnesses within an 80 foot radius.
9. There is record evidence to corroborate that Gumm was not in danger of his life when he "angrily" shot and killed Dale Turney.
10. For the most part, all of the information you folks have read has been part of a misinformation campaign, to scare you regarding your rights to bear arms, and to make a conviction in this case less likely.
11. At least half of all Homicide cases are defended by self-defense.
12. Gumm has told his story @ least seven times now, and the details he has given have been different seven times, and are different from all of the bystander witnesses.
13. Kenneth Gumm was repesented very well by his NRA attorneys. They saved him from possibly going to prison. A jury could not have suspended his sentence. Once they heard the real case, a conviction was likely.
14. Notice that all of the Tulsa World articles include only the Defense version of events. Other sources were ignored, and or deleted, because there is an obvious agenda in play.
15. The so-called government expense to prosecute Gumm was completely negligible. Police reports and citizen witnesses were utilized. Probably less the $500.00 total.
16. Pay attention to Court homicide cases. This type of killing occurs in North Tulsa all the time. People get mad and kill. The only thing that made this case different from the scores of homicides investigated, was location of shooting, and the press coverage.

The truth in this case is easy to find. Do any of you wonder why all of the information in this case has come only from Gumm? Them family has chosen to be classy and respectable regarding their comments. They sat still, as they were asked, for months, while Gumm had free reign with the press. They never even asked for prison time.

Justice was done in this case.

1 and 2 are opinion but I happen to agree.

I believe 3,4, and 5 are true.

I believe 6 and 7 to be false.

8 is definitely true.

9 is pure conjecture by someone who is probably unqualified to make such an assessment.

10 and 11 are definitely false and 11 is easily disproven.

12 is also true but in my opinion more indicative of bad judgement than malice.

13 is again opinion but I think it is accurate. However the poster wants readers to believe that Gumm's lawyers worked for the NRA. The reality is they were part of the NRA's legal defense plan.

14 is blatantly false.

15 and 16 are laughable and not worth addressing.

Michael Brown

 

[cowboydoc]

I have seen that video several times before on different websites and forums and it pisses me off every time. I keep thinking why doesn't the driver just run the SOB over and end it.

 

[redmax51]

My guess is the car was stolen and the whole thing staged.

Doubtful,guy clearly was a crack/meth head(based on his behavior) and driver appeared/sounded like a middle aged white woman.Not exactly the kind of people who hang together,IMHO.Whether it is or not is not Mike's point,they ARE out there.

BTW,this video has been around awhile now and it's still pretty disturbing.