Automation

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

ShaunyP26

Sharpshooter
Special Hen
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
1,329
Reaction score
117
Location
Oklahoma City, OK
Bridges and roads to nowhere do not help the economy. If the government has enough money to build such things, it has that money to return to the taxpayers where it will spur economic worthwhile and sustainable growth. If government does not have the money and borrows it instead, government has only increased debt and the burden debt has on the taxpayers.

Since when does China pay us to borrow its money?

Woody

The government issues what are called inflation protected securities, which are indexed to the CPI--the inflation measure. The good thing about these is that it allows the government to capture extremely low borrowing costs during a time of high demand for it's bonds and low inflation. (Low inflation drives more demand for bonds and vice versa.) Its also a nice check on government borrowing, as it makes them less appealing and costly when inflation and interest rates are rising. This is a natural check on government borrowing better than any congressman. For most of the last 7 years the government could borrow at rates of zero, close to zero, or less than zero out to 10 years. Here's the 5 year chart, so you can see the stark difference. (Have to post the 10 year in a seperate post because of the way pics post here.)

IMG_1675.JPG


This is literally a free lunch to US taxpayers. If they issued these bonds and then invested in projects which raised the growth rate of the economy in the long run or raised living standards then that's not a bad thing. China and many other countries buy these bonds on a regular basis. Hell, they could issue tons of these and give everyone a tax cut. The deficit would rise of course, but it would be costing us essentially nothing. It's not the size of the debt that matters. It's how much it actually costs to carry and service it. I think you're comparing your monthly payments on your debt to the actual amount outstanding. The amount still owing on your mortgage represents the total debt, whereas your monthly mortgage payment represents how much it costs for you to service that debt and pay it down. In the case above that represents an actual ongoing cost of zero, or less than zero, dollars to the US taxpayer.

Does that make sense? It's like having a principal only mortgage. The money is literally free.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1676.JPG
    IMG_1676.JPG
    39.6 KB · Views: 92
  • IMG_1674.JPG
    IMG_1674.JPG
    41.3 KB · Views: 55

ShaunyP26

Sharpshooter
Special Hen
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
1,329
Reaction score
117
Location
Oklahoma City, OK
"Free" money or not, it still represents money spent beyond income and must be paid back sooner or later. I see no advantage. I do much better when my income is not spoken for before I get it.

Woody

The federal government does not face the same constraints as a household, but I understand where you're coming from.
 

Timmy59

Sharpshooter
Special Hen
Joined
Nov 30, 2015
Messages
5,991
Reaction score
7,694
Location
Oklahoma
Automation has been around a long time, Dad and I were automating shops back in the 80's with our machine shop.. Automated spot welders that operated so quick they robbed the city of of electricity because the meter couldn't keep up.. Panty stackers for Henson kickernick, Yes it stacked women's panties.. 5 axis robots with wire feed welders made quick work of welding.. Threshold machine which an operator would put in long lengths of threshold and the machine would, drill, tap, countersink and cut to length.. Automated punch presses, stackers, welders etc.. Industry automation was our specialty, yes we put people out of work but it increased profits.. A robot / automation doesn't call in sick or need vacation time.. It does require people to operate it of course as mentioned above..
 

ShaunyP26

Sharpshooter
Special Hen
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
1,329
Reaction score
117
Location
Oklahoma City, OK
Automation has been around a long time, Dad and I were automating shops back in the 80's with our machine shop.. Automated spot welders that operated so quick they robbed the city of of electricity because the meter couldn't keep up.. Panty stackers for Henson kickernick, Yes it stacked women's panties.. 5 axis robots with wire feed welders made quick work of welding.. Threshold machine which an operator would put in long lengths of threshold and the machine would, drill, tap, countersink and cut to length.. Automated punch presses, stackers, welders etc.. Industry automation was our specialty, yes we put people out of work but it increased profits.. A robot / automation doesn't call in sick or need vacation time.. It does require people to operate it of course as mentioned above..

Yes but less people than before. Robots also don't buy homes, cars, or any other local goods or services provided by the other people employed in the local economy. Of course, the robot owners profits increase but unless there are other industries to absorb the displaced workers at comparable salaries then the net result is everyone is worse off even if a few make outsize profits. Robots are a distribution problem, not an economic growth problem.
 

Timmy59

Sharpshooter
Special Hen
Joined
Nov 30, 2015
Messages
5,991
Reaction score
7,694
Location
Oklahoma
Yes but less people than before. Robots also don't buy homes, cars, or any other local goods or services provided by the other people employed in the local economy. Of course, the robot owners profits increase but unless there are other industries to absorb the displaced workers at comparable salaries then the net result is everyone is worse off even if a few make outsize profits. Robots are a distribution problem, not an economic growth problem.

True, But If the worker took greater pride in their work, didn't piss and moan about the job and aimed for perfect attendance then just maybe automation would have not been seen as a need.. Let minimum wage go up for burger flippers and watch what happens to the fast food industry..
 

ConstitutionCowboy

Sharpshooter
Supporting Member
Special Hen Supporter
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
6,291
Reaction score
5,194
Location
Kingfisher County
The federal government does not face the same constraints as a household, but I understand where you're coming from.
The Feral Government may seem to "not face the same constraints as a household," but when you realize that taxation pays off those loans, it effects every household. It represents more of my money spent before I get it. Get it?

Woody
 

ShaunyP26

Sharpshooter
Special Hen
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
1,329
Reaction score
117
Location
Oklahoma City, OK
True, But If the worker took greater pride in their work, didn't piss and moan about the job and aimed for perfect attendance then just maybe automation would have not been seen as a need.. Let minimum wage go up for burger flippers and watch what happens to the fast food industry..

So you think a lack of pride and attendance among workers is why the manufacturing sector has managed to increase real output by more than 30% with barely a 5% increase in total employment? Interesting theory you have there.

IMG_1697.PNG
 

ShaunyP26

Sharpshooter
Special Hen
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
1,329
Reaction score
117
Location
Oklahoma City, OK
The Feral Government may seem to "not face the same constraints as a household," but when you realize that taxation pays off those loans, it effects every household. It represents more of my money spent before I get it. Get it?

Woody

Are you making a moral case against taxation or an economic one? Imagine an economy where everyone theoretically pays the exact same tax rate--a flat tax, if you will. If Income rises overall than the amount of revenue would increase even if the tax rate always stayed constant. If the flat tax rate is 20%, as an example, than 20% on a higher baseline amount still represents an increase in overall revenue taken in, regardless of if you pay the same tax rate over and over again year to year.

Get it?
 

ConstitutionCowboy

Sharpshooter
Supporting Member
Special Hen Supporter
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
6,291
Reaction score
5,194
Location
Kingfisher County
I'm making neither case. I'm talking about the Feral Government borrowing money and making me and every other tax payer pay it back with no benefit to us from whatever the Feral Government spent the borrowed money(and taxes) on such as bridges and roads to nowhere, money spent in support of failing and/or un-self-sustainable business, and programs like NPR, NEA, etc.

Woody
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom