School Budget Cuts..help me out

[Glocktogo]

Why not consider reducing state funding in Vo-tech and higher ed. Vo tech spends $9000/ pupil and limits who can attend their programs. Common ed spends 1/2 that and has NO option to limit who they educate? Higher ed can and does receive large ammounts of money from the public and private sector for endowments, and special projects. Public education is almost shout out of that sector of funding and again higher ed limits who can attend while common educates educates everyone and cannot limit who they educate.

Do you have any figures which show Vo-Tech schools fail to produce qualified graduates for trade jobs? Can you show how cutting Vo-Tech budgets will increase the number of H.S. graduates? Let's face it, a H.S. diploma may help you get into college but it doesn't qualify you for a quality job. If a Vo-Tech education gets someone qualified for a trade license (or prepares them for passing a trade licensing test), then it may be worth the extra coin?

You have a biased position on the subject, so I'm just curious how you justify it.

 

[vvvvvvv]

Why not consider reducing state funding in Vo-tech and higher ed. Vo tech spends $9000/ pupil and limits who can attend their programs. Common ed spends 1/2 that and has NO option to limit who they educate? Higher ed can and does receive large ammounts of money from the public and private sector for endowments, and special projects. Public education is almost shout out of that sector of funding and again higher ed limits who can attend while common educates educates everyone and cannot limit who they educate.

What parameters did you use to arrive at that figure? Does that figure include state- and federally-mandated TIPs? Does it include grants that are received by the state and distributed to the schools?

What is the definition of "pupil" in this case? Full-time program students? TIP students? Continuing education students?

I do agree that the state either needs to reduce funding or place stipulations on funding to colleges and universities. A couple of years ago, I looked into going back to college. After seeing the tuitions had nearly tripled in 8 years, I decided that a college degree in my field was worth even less than it had been before.

Perhaps the state should get out of the education business altogether.

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[tntrex]

Superintendents, principals, etc salary are public record on oklahoma education dept.

 

[vvvvvvv]

Superintendents, principals, etc salary are public record on oklahoma education dept.

Public record, yes. But not all are published online.

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[bettingpython]

Public record, yes. But not all are published online.

Sent at a speed of 3*10^8 meters per second via Tapatalk.

Who's isn't? The Tulsa world publishes a database of information it requests every year from the SDE, as well as other state governmental agency fiscal information, it is a legal requirement that ALL pay and compensation be reported and certified annually there's none of this well theirs a hidden bonus package etc. My salary information for FY13 is available online, the salary information of part time child nutrition workers and bus drivers is out there as well. We are also required as a district to publish a CAFR, Union is both GAAP and GASB34 compliant. The SDE also has that information freely accessible. If it's not online file a FOIA or tell the news media it's missing something when they do their FOIA's and publish data.

 

[crrcboatz]

What parameters did you use to arrive at that figure? Does that figure include state- and federally-mandated TIPs? Does it include grants that are received by the state and distributed to the schools?

What is the definition of "pupil" in this case? Full-time program students? TIP students? Continuing education students?

I do agree that the state either needs to reduce funding or place stipulations on funding to colleges and universities. A couple of years ago, I looked into going back to college. After seeing the tuitions had nearly tripled in 8 years, I decided that a college degree in my field was worth even less than it had been before.

Perhaps the state should get out of the education business altogether.

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I appreciate you asking for statistics. The most current available are for 2012 for both votech and state public to compare. Since funding has dropped since then it would be safe to assume the current stats would be worse than this.

State career tech centers enrollment of high school students 16,348
State funding for career tech centers 107,064,632 dollars

my math translates that to $10,310 per student.

State of Oklahoma per student spending for 2012 $7587

Career Tech enrollment 16,348
Full time instructional staff 1,193

My simple math indicates that is 13/1 student teacher ratio
Oklahoma figures last available was 29/1 student teacher ratio

Now with regard to teacher salaries of career centers in metro areas, my wife retired 2 yrs ago with 35 yrs teaching experience at tulsa technology center. Her base salary was $60,088 She does not have a masters degree and worked 10 months a year. He benefits package was an additional 9,000+ a year. We have a friend there that was a counselor. Her base salary was $89000+ with a similar benefit package.

The figures for career tech information came from here http://www.okcareertech.org/about/annual-report-fast-facts/annual-report-2012-1/view

So with the pay these people make, the teacher student ratio, and the PALACES they all work in, I hope people wake up a little on the vo tech windfall that is out there. Oh and don't forget they get to interview and hand pick their students at these centers. They also purposefully don't offer much for handicapped and special ed students. They don't want to be bothered with them.

One other figure as food for thought, of the 7587 dollars Oklahoma spends only about $4800+ comes from STATE funding. That means only about 63% of the total is supplied by our state. The remainder is federal dollars.

 

[vvvvvvv]

Who's isn't? The Tulsa world publishes a database of information it requests every year from the SDE, as well as other state governmental agency fiscal information, it is a legal requirement that ALL pay and compensation be reported and certified annually there's none of this well theirs a hidden bonus package etc. My salary information for FY13 is available online, the salary information of part time child nutrition workers and bus drivers is out there as well. We are also required as a district to publish a CAFR, Union is both GAAP and GASB34 compliant. The SDE also has that information freely accessible. If it's not online file a FOIA or tell the news media it's missing something when they do their FOIA's and publish data.

Most (if not all) vo-techs aren't available online. The only online information is a line item for payroll the last time I was able to check (when Oklahoma's open records portal supported other browsers than Internet Explorer). In the past, it was pretty regular for media raising advertising rates to use "publication of payroll information" as a negotiating tool. Certain schools didn't want that published because of certain salary disparities (as in two administrative assistants - same years on job - same qualifications - same job description except A "supervises" B - A makes $40K, B makes $60K).

I appreciate you asking for statistics. The most current available are for 2012 for both votech and state public to compare. Since funding has dropped since then it would be safe to assume the current stats would be worse than this.

State career tech centers enrollment of high school students 16,348
State funding for career tech centers 107,064,632 dollars

my math translates that to $10,310 per student.

...

The figures for career tech information came from here http://www.okcareertech.org/about/annual-report-fast-facts/annual-report-2012-1/view

You're making the assumption that 100% of state funding only goes to high school students enrolled in full time programs. However, high school students enrolled in full time programs account for only 4.17% of CareerTech's total enrollment (391,882).

Let's assume that TIPs and ISTs receive $0 state dollars. That brings the amount per student to ~$1100. If we take out ACDs, that's ~$3736 for full-time programs.

One other figure as food for thought, of the 7587 dollars Oklahoma spends only about $4800+ comes from STATE funding. That means only about 63% of the total is supplied by our state. The remainder is federal dollars.

Actually, only ~$700M, or ~15% is non-state funding (using the numbers you provided). Where your $4,800 probably comes from is state appropriations, and state appropriations are not the only state source of funding. Also, state and federal sources do not take into account local sources.

As for instructor salaries at vo-techs, the metro areas have to compete with the private sector for talent. Many rural instructors don't make much more than they would teaching high school - some make less but do it because of the satisfaction it brings.

And believe me, not all campuses are palaces. Some are nicer than others, and some just have a pretty façade.

 

[crrcboatz]

Your assumption that 391,882 all attend vo tech campus'. That is dead wrong. The 1193 students figure are HS students bussed to the campus' via votech from participating high schools. The remainder of the 391,882 are broken down between high schools that have vo tech programs on their campuses, and the biggest contributor, adult students mostly participating in industry training offered by vo tech. comprehensive high schools make up 135,372 of the total secondary students of 151,720. Those students programs are financed at their campus by the $26,677,395 portion of the total vo tech budget. They are not part of the $107+ million that vo tech campuses get. The largest portion of all the students that make up votechs enrollment is Industry specific ADULT training. which is 286,345 people. Total adult enrollment is over 375000 as the figures on that site indicate.
Now if votech is in fact serving over 2 adult students for every one high school student then move them under the other ADULT adult centers, ie higher education To not do that is to use high school student funds allocated by the state for hs students to in fact carry a big part of the education cost of adults. We don't ask colleges to do that do we??!!! lol.

Vo tech doesn't make it public how much they do in fact serve adult students over hs age students. They are basically in the adult ed business all the while using high school student funding to do it. If colleges did that the public would go nuts.
An additional point to make. Business and industry often secure FREE training from votechs for employees as a part of locating in Oklahoma. That is fine but it is again adults so that makes for an additional argument of votechs being under the umbrella of higher ed. The local votech campuses seem to take great pride in representing to students the point they sell that "you are earning college credit in many of our programs". Point one. Those credits aren't worth the paper they are printed on outside this state. Two very very few of the 4 yrs schools in Oklahoma recognize those credits. Most of those credits are only good for 2 yr degrees at community colleges. Public school credits will transfer any where in the US. They are not limited by local agreements only. LETS PUT VOTECH UNDER HIGHER ED WHERE THEY BELONG. LETS QUIT BUILDING PALACES ALL OVER THE STATE WITH LOCAL FUNDED BOND ISSUES FOR THESE BUILDINGS BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF THE STUDENTS ARE ADULT. FINALLY LETS STOP FUNDING FROM THE STATE DEPT OF ED BUDGET TO VO TECHS TO FINANCE ADULT EDUCATION. LET HIGHER EDUCATION CARRY THAT LOAD.
I believe high school students should be funded for votech education by the state dept but only if they will quit hand picking their students and increase the teacher pupil ratio to something that would allow more students to attend.
As for pay of vo tech teachers outside the metro area, your comment on that without some proof. Simply put prove that statement. I provided you proof VEGGIE now where is yours on that.

It appears you have a strong link to votech the way you protect them. Someone did a job on you man.

 

[crrcboatz]

My wife has a friend whose husband teachs masonry at a votech in a rural area of the state. She just told me that teacher makes $52000 a year and had 16 students ALL DAY!!! Oh and that figure does not include benefits. The argument that metro schools must compete with business and industry for personnel to rationalize such salaries is a joke. I have met far far too many vo tech teachers over the years that would never go to business and industry because they love having 2 months off. That argument has been thrown around for many years in educational circles by votech as a ploy. They do everything they can to hide their pay scales. That is why you probably cannot find them Veggie.

 

[vvvvvvv]

Your assumption that 391,882 all attend vo tech campus'. That is dead wrong. The 1193 students figure are HS students bussed to the campus' via votech from participating high schools. The remainder of the 391,882 are broken down between high schools that have vo tech programs on their campuses, and the biggest contributor, adult students mostly participating in industry training offered by vo tech. comprehensive high schools make up 135,372 of the total secondary students of 151,720. Those students programs are financed at their campus by the $26,677,395 portion of the total vo tech budget. They are not part of the $107+ million that vo tech campuses get. The largest portion of all the students that make up votechs enrollment is Industry specific ADULT training. which is 286,345 people. Total adult enrollment is over 375000 as the figures on that site indicate.
Now if votech is in fact serving over 2 adult students for every one high school student then move them under the other ADULT adult centers, ie higher education To not do that is to use high school student funds allocated by the state for hs students to in fact carry a big part of the education cost of adults. We don't ask colleges to do that do we??!!! lol.

Vo tech doesn't make it public how much they do in fact serve adult students over hs age students. They are basically in the adult ed business all the while using high school student funding to do it. If colleges did that the public would go nuts.
An additional point to make. Business and industry often secure FREE training from votechs for employees as a part of locating in Oklahoma. That is fine but it is again adults so that makes for an additional argument of votechs being under the umbrella of higher ed. The local votech campuses seem to take great pride in representing to students the point they sell that "you are earning college credit in many of our programs". Point one. Those credits aren't worth the paper they are printed on outside this state. Two very very few of the 4 yrs schools in Oklahoma recognize those credits. Most of those credits are only good for 2 yr degrees at community colleges. Public school credits will transfer any where in the US. They are not limited by local agreements only. LETS PUT VOTECH UNDER HIGHER ED WHERE THEY BELONG. LETS QUIT BUILDING PALACES ALL OVER THE STATE WITH LOCAL FUNDED BOND ISSUES FOR THESE BUILDINGS BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF THE STUDENTS ARE ADULT. FINALLY LETS STOP FUNDING FROM THE STATE DEPT OF ED BUDGET TO VO TECHS TO FINANCE ADULT EDUCATION. LET HIGHER EDUCATION CARRY THAT LOAD.
I believe high school students should be funded for votech education by the state dept but only if they will quit hand picking their students and increase the teacher pupil ratio to something that would allow more students to attend.
As for pay of vo tech teachers outside the metro area, your comment on that without some proof. Simply put prove that statement. I provided you proof VEGGIE now where is yours on that.

It appears you have a strong link to votech the way you protect them. Someone did a job on you man.

I see you didn't read the part where I specifically excluded ISTs, TIPs, and ACDs. The funding for those programs is extremely convoluted - some from general ed, some from higher ed, some from tax credits, some from tax earmarks, some from federal grants, some from private grants, some completely out of pocket (though typically paid in full by the student's employer if that's the case), etc. Some ACDs could even be "marketing" or "R&D" expenses for some companies. Additionally, comprehensive programs were also not included because your original number also did not include them.

State Dept. of Ed, CareerTech, and Higher Ed are all completely separate departments/agencies/line-items. CareerTech does not get money that has been appropriated to or generated by Department of Education.

You're asking me to provide proof of an anecdote. If you want, I can readily provide "proof" in the same manner as your "proof" (purely anecdotal, non-verified, and non-official "I know of or am related to someone"), but you'd likely not accept it. I could probably do a FOI request, but then again I 1) don't want to wait a year for a response, 2) know that it will make zero difference, and 3) don't care for wasteful use of my tax dollars. There are much more important fish to fry.

You've also assumed that the only competition for instructor positions is doing what they train for in the private sector. In reality, most of the full-time programs available in the vo-tech system have analogs offered to employees by employers. That's not even including other private training facilities such as ITT or UTI.

I have not "protected" the vo-tech system at all. I've only insisted that facts be accurately presented. If you actually comprehend the text in my previous posts, you'll see that I've insinuated some of the reasons why I left the public education system because I could not in good conscience be part of that. For example, the lack of follow-through on SAI reports on some schools can be rather astonishing.

Personally, I believe the entire public education system is a disservice to society as it is currently implemented. Rather than educating students in high school, we insist they they don't stray from their batch that was decided by their born-on date and we do our best to hold back the truly intelligent because of "equality". Many of the courses available in the vo-tech system (especially IT) are outdated and practically useless in the real world by the day of completion. Colleges steal from the earning potentials of students.