School Budget Cuts..help me out

[crrcboatz]

I see you didn't read the part where I specifically excluded ISTs, TIPs, and ACDs. The funding for those programs is extremely convoluted - some from general ed, some from higher ed, some from tax credits, some from tax earmarks, some from federal grants, some from private grants, some completely out of pocket (though typically paid in full by the student's employer if that's the case), etc. Some ACDs could even be "marketing" or "R&D" expenses for some companies. Additionally, comprehensive programs were also not included because your original number also did not include them.

State Dept. of Ed, CareerTech, and Higher Ed are all completely separate departments/agencies/line-items. CareerTech does not get money that has been appropriated to or generated by Department of Education.

You're asking me to provide proof of an anecdote. If you want, I can readily provide "proof" in the same manner as your "proof" (purely anecdotal, non-verified, and non-official "I know of or am related to someone"), but you'd likely not accept it. I could probably do a FOI request, but then again I 1) don't want to wait a year for a response, 2) know that it will make zero difference, and 3) don't care for wasteful use of my tax dollars. There are much more important fish to fry.

You've also assumed that the only competition for instructor positions is doing what they train for in the private sector. In reality, most of the full-time programs available in the vo-tech system have analogs offered to employees by employers. That's not even including other private training facilities such as ITT or UTI.

I have not "protected" the vo-tech system at all. I've only insisted that facts be accurately presented. If you actually comprehend the text in my previous posts, you'll see that I've insinuated some of the reasons why I left the public education system because I could not in good conscience be part of that. For example, the lack of follow-through on SAI reports on some schools can be rather astonishing.

Personally, I believe the entire public education system is a disservice to society as it is currently implemented. Rather than educating students in high school, we insist they they don't stray from their batch that was decided by their born-on date and we do our best to hold back the truly intelligent because of "equality". Many of the courses available in the vo-tech system (especially IT) are outdated and practically useless in the real world by the day of completion. Colleges steal from the earning potentials of students.

I would bet I understand the state funding formula for public schools better than 99% of the public including you. Vo tech STEALS funding from the state of Oklahoma for the purpose of educating a small selected number of students, then uses the majority of those funds to educate adults. That is not hard to understand from the link I gave you. You can choose to not discuss that but it is plain and simple. If public schools had a larger portion of those funds they deserve the education picture would be far different. Vo tech is a huge cloud of hot air that has long been hidden from the public's eye in the area of finance. You will not find an area votech administrator that is willing to have that conversation. Why? They cannot defend it just as you cannot. They cannot defend and avg of 13 students \ day while public school teachers must deal with 29-40 per day. They cannot defend $10000 plus in per pupil expenditure for high school students while public schools struggle with $7500 per student. They cannot defend educating mostly adult students under the pretense that those dollars are going for ADULT students who belong under the Regents for Higher Education. They cannot defend the Palaces they work in that were built with local funds to educate those 13 students / day while public schools handle 2-3 times more than that. They cannot defend a pay scale that far exceeds the avg public school's for many teachers that do not even have a 4 yr degree. They cannot defend hand picking their students, then sending them back to their home high schools if they don't like their conduct. They cannot defend not educating more than a handful of special education students. This could go on and on and on. Yes votech is a baseless cloud that the public will at some time figure out and also hopefully put it where it belongs, IN HIGHER EDUCATION UNDER THE STATE REGENTS.

Who ever you really are, I would be more than glad to sit down with you and discuss the state funding formula for public schools. Name the time and place. Some of my fellow administrators would greatly enjoy that conversation.

 

[crrcboatz]

You know I was too aggressive on the last thread. I get pretty worked up on this subject. I should appreciate the fact that at least you are interested in talking about the funding crisis. Veggie you are willing to get out there and have that discussion. I should not challenge you so much on that. We are just in separate corners about how to fix the issue. You like votech. My passion is public education. In the end it is the students of this state that we both care about. Please forgive me for challenging you rather I should have been challenging the issue only. Instead of meeting on terms that I went out of bounds on maybe we should meet sometime and just have a beer!!! I will shut up and listen to others. I hope you will forgive me.

 

[vvvvvvv]

A beer summit is fine with me as long as there's Guinness. Cigars and Scotch is better.

I don't like the vo-tech system. I haven't once defended the vo-tech system; I've only tried to make sure that facts are presented. You'll probably find in many threads on this forum where public policy is debated that I have no problem introducing facts that may not necessarily help my own position (and in some cases may even hurt it). I believe that all available data should be considered even if one does not agree with the implications of that data. Analyzing all of the data that is available to us is how we grow, learn, adapt, and evolve.

Ideologically, I believe the state should not be involved in education at the state or federal level. Pragmatically, I believe wholesale reform is needed. The current system of education was right for the industrial revolution. It is not the right system for our modern needs, and the aystem right for our modern neees won't be right 50 years from now.

Sent from my SGP312 using Tapatalk

 

[Hoov]

I didn't read the whole thread. This sham has been going on for years and will continue to do so because, wait for it.... "It's for the children." It would appear that finance and economics are not a part of Common Core. And today, our educators' handlers, the cosa nostra known as the OEA, are busing in props, your children, to be cheerleaders for them at the Capitol. I hope they gave them the brown uniforms. Did I mention they were using public school busses to make a political statement? Don't ask me how I really feel.

 

[Lakenut]

For those of you who bash public schools....Funding for public ed has been reduced by over 20% in the past 6 years or so....plus the # of kids that are being served by the system has continued to rise. However, most school districts have continued to do a great job of serving their students. Are the schools perfect? Nope. Are they doing the best with what they have? Absolutely.

I agree their needs to be a revamp of the way schools are run. But until that day comes, schools need to be funded to educate kids. The most obvious change coming if funding doesn't increase is class size. Our district is looking at class sizes that will have kids sitting on top of each other. Second, great teachers are leaving the profession like mad because they can't afford to teach anymore. Teachers need to see a pay raise. The "step increase" that is given as a "raise" each year equates to around 3/4 of a percent of the teacher's salary. Meanwhile cost of living is increasing at a much higher rate.

Hoov, you need to get your facts straight....the buses being used to bus in "props" are being paid for by private funds.

 

[bettingpython]

The busses transporting people from my district to OKC required each passenger to pay $5 to cover fuel and salary expenses for the drivers.

 

[vvvvvvv]

Funding for public ed has been reduced by over 20% in the past 6 years or so....

Changes from one year to the next:

Legislative Appropriations:
FY2012-FY2013: increase of 2% for Common Ed, 1% for Higher Ed, 1% for CareerTech, 41% for Other Ed, 2% overall
FY2011-FY2012: increase of 2% for Common Ed, 0% for Higher Ed, -6% for CareerTech, 0% for Other Ed, 1% overall
FY2010-FY2011: increase of 0% for Common Ed, 0% for Higher Ed, -3% for CareerTech, 69% for Other Ed, 0% overall
FY2009-FY2010: increase of -12% for Common Ed, -9% for Higher Ed, -8% for CareerTech, -48% for Other Ed, -11% overall
FY2008-FY2009: increase of 2% for Common Ed, -1% for Higher Ed, 2% for CareerTech, 3% for Other Ed, 1% overall
FY2007-FY2008: increase of 6% for Common Ed, 13% for Higher Ed, 5% for CareerTech, 15% for Other Ed, 8% overall

Executive Proposals:
(Fallin) FY2013-FY2014: increase of 3% for Common Ed, 4% for Higher Ed, 2% for CareerTech, 42% for Other Ed, 4% overall
(Fallin) FY2012-FY2013: increase of 2% for Common Ed, 1% for Higher Ed, 1% for CareerTech, 41% for Other Ed, 2% overall
(Fallin) FY2011-FY2012: increase of 2% for Common Ed, 0% for Higher Ed, -6% for CareerTech, 0% for Other Ed, 1% overall
(Fallin) FY2010-FY2011: increase of 8% for Common Ed, 6% for Higher Ed, 8% for CareerTech, 69% for Other Ed, 8% overall
(Henry) FY2009-FY2010: increase of -5% for Common Ed, -4% for Higher Ed, 0% for CareerTech, -13% for Other Ed, -5% overall
(Henry) FY2008-FY2009: increase of 2% for Common Ed, -1% for Higher Ed, 2% for CareerTech, 3% for Other Ed, 1% overall

Actual Spending:
FY2012-FY2013: increase of 0.3% overall
FY2011-FY2012: increase of -3.9% overall
FY2010-FY2011: increase of -1.7% overall
FY2009-FY2010: increase of 0.6% overall
FY2008-FY2009: increase of 5.3% overall
FY2007-FY2008: increase of 4% overall

On a chart for convenience:

Sources are Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports from 2008-2013.

 

[Old Fart]

A little info.
High Schools receive CareerTech funding out of the same pie as VoTech schools. Home Ec, Vo Ag, and a few others dollars here and there.
Also VoTech schools were started because of cost per student for equipment was prohibitive. Well and some misspent or lost funding.

 

[vvvvvvv]

Something else to keep in mind...

They say the total spending on common education by the state is $7,587/student. Appropriations only account for $3,484/student. The total spending reported in the CAFRs doesn't explain the additional $4,103/student for a total public common education expenditure of $5,171,132,286.

See how the "budget" is rather misleading yet?

 

[Old Fart]

I remember how convoluted the school financing is from the courses I took on it back in grad school.
Deliberately confusing I might add.