School shootings. Ideas on how to reduce the damage?

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Glocktogo

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Perhaps it's just my web browser, but my last post in this thread somehow wound up on page 2, so I'm reposting it because otherwise I'm not sure anyone will see it. :(

What can be done? I have heard a lot of suggestions, but I am just not sure that arming the teachers or the administrators is the answer. Educators are not trained in handling weapons. They are teachers. To me the solution might be a volunteer watch to guard the children while they are in the class room.

They can't be armed without training and coordination. Not effectively or safely that is. Even volunteer watch persons would require the same. In a perfect example, the community itself would set the policies and procedures, using guidelines promulgated by personal security professionals. I specifically point to personal security professionals because neither the police nor most security are trained in response and protection for individuals. Most security is trained to protect property and police are trained to process crimes and protect themselves. Having worked in all three fields, I have a unique frame of reference for that assessment.

When discussing armed security in a school setting, you're essentially talking in-place VIP protection. Your VIP’s are the children and to a certain extent, unarmed adults who comprise the potential victim pool. Security of the property itself is only relevant in the context of advancing security for the principals (protected persons, not school administrators in this context). Due to the nature of the setting and environment, weapons control, accountability and deconfliction are critical elements of a successful plan. TTP’s have to be developed, coordinated with local law enforcement agencies and practiced. Hardly any school is going to spend much if any money on the project, so it would require volunteers willing to spend time, money and effort on it. A perfect model would be the TSA Federal Flight Deck Officer Program as administered by the TSA Office of Law Enforcement. All FFDO’s are volunteers who spend their own time and money to get training and remain current.

The only relevant question is whether our school children are valuable enough to make the effort worthwhile. We tend to guard our money and gold with armed men. We tend to guard our children with words and signs. Priorities of the damned if you ask me. :(

Ed,

I disagree with looking at countries with the fewest school shootings. We need to look at other countries with the most, or the most in the past and fewer now. What works for them and what doesn't?

Also, rather than "militarizing" our schools, it needs to be like the Federal Air Marshals. Very discrete, undercover and no one outside the administration and the local responding LE agencies should know who or how many are carrying weapons (or have access to them). The armed personnel must have strict use of force and engagement policies. They never intervene in any non-lethal encounter. Their sole mission in life is to lie in wait and counter-ambush an active lethal threat. The deterrent and response capabilities are enhanced by the secretive nature of the program. The one thing you do is make it very clear that they are there. Are there two armed agents in the school? Five? Twenty? See how that complicates the active shooter's plot?

It's all well and good to have SRO's on site and I think it's an excellent program. But what happens when the potential shooter knows who the SRO is and either takes them out first, or waits until they're off site? Undercover armed responders are VERY difficult to account for when planning a massacre.

It's the very best security measure you can take.
 

GroupGuy

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Perhaps it's just my web browser, but my last post in this thread somehow wound up on page 2, so I'm reposting it because otherwise I'm not sure anyone will see it. :(



Ed,

I disagree with looking at countries with the fewest school shootings. We need to look at other countries with the most, or the most in the past and fewer now. What works for them and what doesn't?

Also, rather than "militarizing" our schools, it needs to be like the Federal Air Marshals. Very discrete, undercover and no one outside the administration and the local responding LE agencies should know who or how many are carrying weapons (or have access to them). The armed personnel must have strict use of force and engagement policies. They never intervene in any non-lethal encounter. Their sole mission in life is to lie in wait and counter-ambush an active lethal threat. The deterrent and response capabilities are enhanced by the secretive nature of the program. The one thing you do is make it very clear that they are there. Are there two armed agents in the school? Five? Twenty? See how that complicates the active shooter's plot?

It's all well and good to have SRO's on site and I think it's an excellent program. But what happens when the potential shooter knows who the SRO is and either takes them out first, or waits until they're off site? Undercover armed responders are VERY difficult to account for when planning a massacre.

It's the very best security measure you can take.

Good stuff. I agree. Let's keep the ideas coming.
 

Lurker66

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I'm not sure I like the idea of militarizing our schools. There is certainly no single way to fix the problem. People keep citing the Israelis' arming of educators, but they don't arm their educators to protect their children. They are their entire adult population as a deterrent against organized, external (yes sometimes internal) forces. This is absolutely not the case in the US.

We can start by looking at other countries, determining which countries have the fewest incidents like this, and examining the differences between how we operate and how they operate. This obviously cannot be done without at least looking at gun regulations in the US. Keep in mind, I'm on this forum so I'm definitely pro-gun, but I could not claim to be a realist without at least acknowledging that gun control is part of the discussion.

Beyond gun control, though, mental healthcare and societal awareness of gun safety are more important to me. The number of guns in America is not the issue here. It's the access that certain people have to guns. Their access to guns is simply more convenient than their access to other violent means. I'm just throwing this idea out there, so don't flame me... When someone purchases a gun and fills out the 4473, why not include a line that asks if you share a dwelling with someone with a history of mental issues? Some may consider this an invasion of privacy, even I do somewhat. But we as a society, through official and un-official means, need to increase our emphasis on our collective responsibility for those around us. Just because I'm safe with a gun doesn't mean that someone I'm close to can't gain access to my gun.

I'm rambling, I know. But I feel like the entire concept of American idealism is a total flop if we have to resort to openly arming our educators just to guarantee the basic safety of our children. It's backwards and points to other failures to address the real problems in America. On a different note, though, I'm fine with CCWs. If someone can legally carry a handgun to Walmart or the movies, then a school should be no different. Denying the rights of CCL holders to carry on school property is like saying "Okay, we trust you to safely carry a firearm everywhere else, but you're unsafe with guns on school property." It's counterintuitive. If someone can't be trusted to carry a gun just because they're near children, then why do we trust them elsewhere?

Very good post.
 

SMS

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They never intervene in any non-lethal encounter. Their sole mission in life is to lie in wait and counter-ambush an active lethal threat. The deterrent and response capabilities are enhanced by the secretive nature of the program.

That sounds good in principle...but the execution of it will be tough in that finding the right breed of sheepdog to perform this function day after day will be near impossible. Tons of folks will raise their hand to do it, right now, in the aftermath of a shooting. But in the long term, years down the road, it will be mind-numbingly boring. The individuals will be subjected to ridicule from other pacifist staff members and it will suck the warrior right out of them. Sort of like what we've seen with the Air Marshall program...It can be done, but it will require vigilance to keep the program from withering on the vine.

I wish our country had the stones to put something like this in place...but we have already signalled that we are instead going for the emotional, feel-good, gun ban approach.
 

farmerbyron

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I wish our country had the stones to put something like this in place...but we have already signalled that we are instead going for the emotional, feel-good, gun ban approach.


That's the shame of this whole thing. Our idiot politicians are going to pass crap that will do absolutely nothing to make our kids safe while ignoring measures that would actively protect our kids.

All this talk of arming teachers, fortified doors, armed security, mental illness assessment etc. is going to be ignored and a useless gun ban put into place. Then when tragedy strikes again, they will push for more restrictions while continuing to ignore the root causes and effective defenses for mass shootings. Just sucks.
 

Glocktogo

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That sounds good in principle...but the execution of it will be tough in that finding the right breed of sheepdog to perform this function day after day will be near impossible. Tons of folks will raise their hand to do it, right now, in the aftermath of a shooting. But in the long term, years down the road, it will be mind-numbingly boring. The individuals will be subjected to ridicule from other pacifist staff members and it will suck the warrior right out of them. Sort of like what we've seen with the Air Marshall program...It can be done, but it will require vigilance to keep the program from withering on the vine.

I wish our country had the stones to put something like this in place...but we have already signalled that we are instead going for the emotional, feel-good, gun ban approach.

As they say, therein lies the rub. :(
 

chuter

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I just sent the following to my reps, senators, and the pres.

Regarding school violence; we all know (including you, Mr. President)
that another gun law won't prevent tragedies like the latest school
massacre by a murderer in Conn.

I would like to propose a 3-pronged approach to reducing school violence:

1.Prevent
2.Deter
3.Prepare

1. Prevent
Mental Health:
Earlier recognition of mental problems
Readily available avenues for getting help
Cultural Shift:
The "culture of gun violence" stems from the media and video games.
Please reference the book "On Killing" by Col. David Grossman. He has
done a lot of research in this area and is a well-known authority on the
subject. Of course prevention treads into some very difficult areas
regarding free speech and determining who is a danger, but it must be
dealt with to some degree. Some leadership from the White House in this
area would be effective.

2. Deter
Make it known that our schools are not easy targets. Make it known that
there are armed personnel (some in plain clothes) in each school, the
doors and windows are hardened, and entry can only be gained by passing a
single screening station.

3. Prepare
Prepare to take action if violence does break out. Harden the windows
and doors. Have trained, armed personnel in each school. These people
can be security guards, police officers, National Guard troops, or school
administrators and teachers if they are so inclined.

Thank you for considering these points,
 

mbear53

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They have spent billions of dollars on fire drills. When is the last time a child has been killed in a school fire? Have shooting drills, and hire qualified personal to protect the kids in the event of a shooting.
 

WNM

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All great ideas so far. Banks have a hired officer on duty, why can't the schools? I'm sure officers would take that extra work.

Not all schools have that kind of money in their budget. We do hire off duty PD to a detail September 1- Until the last day of classes.
 

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