Dealing with Mental Health

[trekrok]

I believe that if we as the firearms community are going to continue to point out the mental health problems of the people.....which in many case is documented and not speculation on our part, we need to come up with something to solve or minimize the mental health aspect of purchasing a firearm and firearms ownership.

I don't agree with the premise linking the two things. Is the problem mental health or is it just mental health and guns? Or mental health and cars/trucks? Or mental health and poison? Or mental health and arson?

I think its naive that gun restrictions change anything except the method. And for the restrictions to do anything, they'd need to be strict and broad.

 

[Glocktogo]

Yes, but we can't magic those away. So being stuck in the real world, is there anything that can be done to address the mental health problem in relation to firearms?

Can anything be done? Yes.
Will anything be done? No.

The issue is very complex, but the biggest obstacles are the outright objections of two warring sides. The left doesn't want to restrict or limit the rights of any person, except their 2nd Amendment rights. The right doesn't trust the left to do those restrictions in a just manner (because they won't), and they don't want to pay for a robust mental health treatment system.

The solution is simply unpalatable to the political class. Also, they raise millions of dollars off it anyway, so there's no incentive for them to come together in a bipartisan manner and fix the problem.

What is the solution? First, the left would have to honestly abandon their assault on the 2nd Amendment. They're just not trustworthy right now. Then the right would have to admit that mental health treatment for the severely mentally ill* is a basic human right. From there they'd both have to rebuild the mental health treatment system they destroyed in the 1960's and 70's, with reforms to safeguard the human dignity of the severely mentally ill. They'd also have to create an adjudication system that safeguards the human dignity of the severely mentally ill, provides for the petition for and restoration of all constitutional rights (at government expense), and most crucially distinguishes between those who are mentally incompetent to handle their affairs, and those who are a physical danger to themselves and others.

It's a massive problem. Unfortunately the people who have the power to effect it, would rather throw ice cubes at the Titanic.

* Severely mentally ill means an actual physical threat to themselves or others.

 

[Snattlerake]

Valid concern and question.

We as a society are fine with taking grandma or grandpa's keys at some point. Legally can we take away your dads firearms though? I don't believe so. I agree with the premise though.

Yes, and I have done so. Especially when we found dad in the bowling alley in his tidy whities and socks with a borrowed Safeway shopping cart walking the alley lanes "shopping".

 

[okcBob]

Older video but very instructive

 

[okcBob]

 

[Red Dirt Walker]

I don't agree with the premise linking the two things. Is the problem mental health or is it just mental health and guns? Or mental health and cars/trucks? Or mental health and poison? Or mental health and arson?

I think its naive that gun restrictions change anything except the method. And for the restrictions to do anything, they'd need to be strict and broad.

If we are able to come to a solution or something to minimize the ability of people seeking mental health help to purchase a firearm, they may indeed move to vehicles or bombs or other means, but right now in the public eye the problem is firearms and mental health.
Since most people in my opinion don't think critically on most subjects, they see this kind of problem simply from an emotional level.
If we want people to see it for what it is though....mental health, we need to address the subject of firearms as they are not screaming about mental health and vehicles or bombs.

 

[Red Dirt Walker]

Maybe the root causes of mental illness should be looked at deeper ...rather waiting till the horse runs away

I would agree, but in my experience professionally, paying attention to politics for some years, and being fascinated with people's behaviors in general....it will never happen.
Root causes are almost always dirty, messy, and often hard for many people to accept. Instead people want to address the "low hanging fruit". So, I'm trying to address the low hanging fruit.

 

[Red Dirt Walker]

Tell me how do we enforce such things when the damn 4473 form has nonbinary which is essentially succumbing to the society's applied norms at the time compared to scientific male-female only?

Wouldn't the mere fact that that question on the form itself can be an argument in court as a green light to all mentally ill persons to acquire firearms?

I don't have the answer, which is why I asked the group the question. Hoping that more heads are better than one.

 

[HMCS(FMF)Ret.]

I think what we have in place for mental health is acceptable when it comes to guns. If a person has been institutionalized by a court they shouldn’t have access to a gun. At least until they are cleared by a doctor. Other than that, I think we’re good. We can come up with a million reasons not to let citizens have the right to have firearms. The answer is….it’s our right, period. Once you start compromising who can or can’t defend themselves (other than what is currently illegal) you might as well give up that right. The question should be how to stop mass shootings, not how to take rights away from free citizens. We’ve had enough school shootings. How are these people getting in? Nobody should be able to get into a school unless they’re buzzed in at a central access point. Nobody should be able to leave an outside door open without an alarm going off to notify armed security (armed with rifles). We must come up with better security solutions for schools, it’s that simple. This shouldn’t be this hard! So instead of politicians making excuses and blaming guns, they should be the ones answering how are these people getting into our schools! Then, what changes have they implemented to keep these people out. You can’t kill people you can’t get to.

 

[donner]

Does anyone have any stats on state contributions to spending on mental health over the years? Especially since 1981 when much of the Mental Health Systems Act was repealed?